Comments on The Science of Sport: Chuene's survival and South Africa's cricket exit

Hi, I came across this site by way of the Semenya...

2009-10-03T15:19:17.092+02:00

Hi,

I came across this site by way of the Semenya case and have really appreciated your coverage of it and also enjoyed going through the archives.

Off topic for this post but about South African sport in general -

I was wondering what had happened with the SA netball team (apart from us Kiwis poaching players)?

The World Netball Series line up for this weekend is apparently the top six teams in the world and that includes Samoa and Malawi but no South Africa.

Hi again I don't know if I've ever heard anyone e...

2009-10-02T17:45:14.716+02:00

Hi again

I don't know if I've ever heard anyone end a debate with "bye bye". That says a great deal.

Thanks for visiting and for putting your opinion out there. You may wish to contact Julius Malema to find a debating ally.

Regards
Ross

Dear Ross, Adios my friend. Actually it is you who...

2009-10-02T17:41:56.936+02:00

Dear Ross,
Adios my friend. Actually it is you who is getting ruffled up and now you are starting to fling accusations and soon you will insult me I am afraid. Perhaps the debate is getting a bit too strong for you. I suspect. I still have more of my argument/points to put forward only if I could find a level headed opponent that does not get angry and through insults.

You say I am making up stuff, you go back and re-read your own postings

actually let me assist you

"But you also can't just let things go on the basis of "freedom for all", because what do her competitors say? Do we even care what her competitors say? If you say no to that last one, then why care about Semenya's choice?" This is what you wrote.

When they don't have it, they dont have it. These other women...... yade yade yada....

You also wrote this
'You can't just have an "everything goes" attitude because people believe it. Many people who dope believe they are not doping, should they be allowed - after all, they're just "exploiting their potential" in another way?'

Dopers will not be exploiting teir potential when on dope, if anything they will be exploiting the potential of the drugs they will be on, (anyone would know that). I take this as an insult of my interlect for you to even put something like this in front of me.

And you say I am making up things. You are not a worthy debator.

So bye bye!

Hi Anonymous Thanks for returning. I'm sorry you...

2009-10-02T16:45:24.404+02:00

Hi Anonymous

Thanks for returning. I'm sorry you feel that way. Your blind belief in Chuene points to why he may still be in power, to the detriment of athletics in this country, seeing as they've now lost a massive sponsor. Ultimately the athletes will fail, and if you wish to condone that kind of management, go ahead. I prefer to condemn it. That is the reason I have said that ASA should not compete - not because of Semenya, but because of management. You have the facts wrong again.

As for the ban, if you can find one occasion where I have said Semenya should be stripped of her medal, please point it out. But in terms of banning her in the future, absolutely, if it is shown she has an advantage. Your blindness to the big picture makes you incapable of seeing that other women will NOT want to race when the gender situation is not controlled.

and what is this about a hunch I would consider it irrelevant? Please, don't preach to me - you know nothing of my beliefs. I'm trying to stick to facts, you're judging, which makes you part of the problem. My religious beliefs are not relevant to this debate. When did I equate Caster's condition to doping? You read one word in each sentence and reach a conclusion - listen, read, think, then speak.

Please, I'm all for debate, but this is going nowhere, because you're making things up.

Ross

It is very unfair that you should dismmiss my argu...

2009-10-02T16:38:07.536+02:00

It is very unfair that you should dismmiss my argument as a phantom argument while it was you who had been had been an admant proponent for the banning of Catser from competing with women. You even went as far as recommending that South Africa be forbiden from competing in a subsiquent international meet.
Any whow to spell out the relation of my point to that of Mr Chuene's lieng, all I'm saying is that, he probably was sensing that there was more to the issue than just the scientific evidence that was presented to him at the time. Not knowing axactly what it was that was bothering him about this thing, when connered he lied (Sometimes humans do that when in a fix, you probably have done it also one time or another in your life). The guy said he was sorry for having misled everyone. And he was repentant. Surely even you believe in forgiveness.

I had hunch you would consider the the religion (God)irrelavent.In all of this the fact that Caster is created as she is by God is not at all important to you. Or perhaps you are not understanding my whole point at all. Or you are choosing not to want to understan.
"the other competitor.....?", you ask. Its compettion Ross, in competition the strong survive.. with waht they were naturall y given... The reason why I say you do not want to understand is that you are equating Caster's condition to doping.....??How??? is that related.. ?? Dopers bring into themseves something from outside. All of Caster's capabilities are natural. She was born with them. Surely I should not be spelling all this out to you.If you intend to be reasonable then you can respond to, oherwise please don't bother. Its not worth it anymore (arguing with you).

To Oliver...
I am sorry, so it was the Media that misled you. From Caster's mom (the horse's mouth so to speak) that is not the case. Caster was never kicked out of any women soccer team. It was her choice to leave. Don't believe everything you read.

Hi Zoe Saw this article, extra=ordinary. It's al...

2009-10-02T16:35:54.303+02:00

Hi Zoe

Saw this article, extra=ordinary. It's almost funny that anyone with public voice can say things like this. A lot of people just laugh at this Malema character, he's said many things like this in the last few years. Yet he's an incredibly dangerous character, and it's a sad indictment on our country that he still has a voice, and a support base.

That last quote betray a big part of the problem - ignorance. Whether it's willful or not, I don't know. It's beyond belief though.

Ross

Oi Vey iz Mir From The Star: ANC Youth League le...

2009-10-02T16:31:08.776+02:00

Oi Vey iz Mir

From The Star:

ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema has called on society to "teach Nedbank a lesson" for withdrawing its sponsorship of Athletics South Africa.

Malema said the bank had used the controversy surrounding Caster Semenya's sex as an excuse to hide its "real agenda".

The real reason Nedbank had withdrawn its sponsorship was because it was disappointed that the three medals won by South Africans at the World Athletics Championships in August were won by blacks, he said yesterday.

SIGH. More of the usual. Political claptrap that you find in most countries. But it gets far worse...

"What does the youth league know about hermaphrodites? The imperialists must not impose this on us if they have hermaphrodites where they come from. They must enjoy living with their hermaphrodites, because in South Africa there are no hermaphrodites."

Hi Ross I think all of us who have lived in SA un...

2009-09-29T20:37:40.775+02:00

Hi Ross

I think all of us who have lived in SA under this administration and the the pre 92 one can answer your question!
Competence was never a criteria when the broederbond ran SA rugby. It clearly isn't a criteria in SA Athletics now.
John

To anonymous at 6:47 Caster was kicked of the gir...

2009-09-29T19:30:43.807+02:00

To anonymous at 6:47

Caster was kicked of the girls soccer team for playing too rough, not beacuse they thought she was a boy, even tho there was cetantly doubts back then too. Soccer was her first love back then, so yes, I think it takes a tough kid not to cry when you are told you can't play anymore. It was after this she deceided to get serious about athetics and running.

Here is the exact quote from the article:

But her powerful physique quickly started to cause problems. She was disqualified from playing women's football by the age of 14 - the coaches said she was too rough with the other girls.
'She was heartbroken,' says her father. 'Up until that point, Caster had lived for football and she was desperate to play the game. The coaches said she was a "hard mama" - too tough and too big to play.
They disqualified her from the women's team and she couldn't play with the men, so her career was over. She was upset, but didn't cry.'

The full article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

Hi Anonymous I have to disagree, purely on the ba...

2009-09-29T18:55:53.764+02:00

Hi Anonymous

I have to disagree, purely on the basis that your position is irrelevant to this particular argument. Nobody here is judging her or saying that her "choice" is wrong. It's a matter of the management and admin of this issue by ASA, that's what this post and the one before it are about.

You're raising points that are irrelevant to the current argument, a 'phantom' debate. So you're not wrong, and of course, one should not judge. But you also can't just let things go on the basis of "freedom for all", because what do her competitors say? Do we even care what her competitors say? If you say no to that last one, then why care about Semenya's choice?

And with respect, not a single argument anywhere implies that she is not a child of God - I feel you are gratuitously spiritualizing the debate. If you can explain to me how this is relevant to the particular issue, then I'll listen, but it's not. This is about management, and it's about equality and fairness of competition, not phantom arguments. You can't just have an "everything goes" attitude because people believe it. Many people who dope believe they are not doping, should they be allowed - after all, they're just "exploiting their potential" in another way?

So I must disagree.

Ross

Hi All, Please this posting and think again. htt...

2009-09-29T18:47:07.329+02:00

Hi All,
Please this posting and think again.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200909280913.html

I have read this piece in allafrica and I think a lot of the stuff said there make sence. After all people did not consult sociologists and religious experts in all of this. Is she to compete with men then? No? who then should she compete with? She was raised a woman, its not like she did a sex change or anything like that (it was most probably the midwife or the nurse that helped in the delivery of the child that assigned her the female sex the mother accepted it and had to be consistant with it. I think the rest of us should respect her choice (Caster's mother's choice of sex or gender for Caster) ). She (Caster) is a creation of God and she deserves all the rights that are granted all human beings in this world, including the right to exploit her potential.No wonder the poor girl cried when she was told she couldn't run. After all she is a child of God too just like you and I and she is not an animal. We need to be more enlightened,spiritual and compasionate. And where the hel did you get that she was kicked of the girls' soccer team, the saying is that "she loved athletics better". Don't be so mean and bitter.

The opposition captain has to approve This isn't ...

2009-09-29T02:51:07.004+02:00

The opposition captain has to approve

This isn't correct. It is convention that the opposition captain can give his opinion, but there is no mention in Law 2 of the opposition captain having any say about runners. The only time the captain is mentioned is in the related topic of a substitute fielder, and there the Law is explicit - "The opposing captain shall have no right of objection to any player acting as a substitute on the field".

Certainly in the case of a torn hamstring (say), the umpires would immediately over-rule any fielding captain who wanted to deny the batsman a runner.

I think its pretty obvious to most people, except ...

2009-09-29T01:20:23.936+02:00

I think its pretty obvious to most people, except those peddling salt tablets, that cramp is due to lack of fitness and is not an injury...even if due to electrolytes.

Reminds me of when former Sri Lankan captain Ranatunga, who got under the skin of Aussies, requested a runner when he got tired and cramped.

The Aussies laughed at him with Healy saying " Being fat and unfit is not an injury".

That was more than ten years ago...they knew it then already.

cheers

Hi, I recently read your series on hydration, and ...

2009-09-28T21:21:32.544+02:00

Hi, I recently read your series on hydration, and I was wondering if you had seen this "field study" from Garmin at the TDF:

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=7532

It seems to follow the "salt loss" thinking, but is a bit more complex bringing in thermoregulation as well.

MikeG

Another exellent post Ross, good read as always. ...

2009-09-28T19:21:43.821+02:00

Another exellent post Ross, good read as always.
I too have been wondering if Sememnya was told WHY she couldn't run in Berlin (before Chuene changed his mind) or just that she could not run and they did not give a clear reason as to why. After reading that she wept (and this is the same person who reportedly did not cry when she got kicked of the girls soccer team - for good) my best guess is that they did tell her about the tests and that there were "problems", and that's mostly why she wept, fearing for her whole career.

It will be interesting to see what comes to light in the next coupple of months. ASA SHOULD be shaking in their boots, those lawyers helping Caster in getting to the bottom of this, are collecting ALL transcrips, documents and tests done by the ASA and the IAAF, basically anything to do with this case. The s#it is about to hit the fan!